Conversations with the Dean: Stephen Dobson (Episode 1)

Transcript

Stephen Dobson:

Hello everybody. I'd just like to acknowledge that we're on the lands of the Darumbal People and we, uh, acknowledge that they are the custodians past, present, and emerging. My name is Steven Dobson, and today I'm talking to,

Ben Jones:

Oh, my name's Dr. Benjamin Jones. I'm a historian here at CQUniversity.

Stephen Dobson:

Yeah. And we're gonna discuss today and have a conversation about what it means to be a, a historian in the time when we don't always think historians are pouring over lots of old dusty books, but, we'll, we'll get to that in a moment. Maybe I'm wrong. So, so Ben, so tell me, so who are you?

Ben Jones:

Well, I'm a historian primarily of Australian political history. So my PhD actually looked at Colonial Australia, colonial Canada and how they, uh, slowly democratized in the 19th century. But my career since then has merged more into a general Australian. I'm really interested in Australian national identity, and particularly, I suppose if I'm known for one thing, it's for Republicanism. I'm very interested right back to the 19th century when the first, uh, Republicans were calling for Australia or for New South Wales to become a Republican. How that movement has, uh, evolved over the years in the years with leading up to federation. And then of course, in the 1990s, there was the most explicit and immediate, uh, example, an expression of Australian republicanism. And I suppose I was 17 when that, uh, vote happened. So I was just a few months too young actually to take part in it. And maybe that sparked an interest in the Republican. I wanted to know why my fellow citizens, uh, voted no on my behalf. And what was some of the historical background to the question and the corollary, I suppose, if that is, uh, where Australia might go in the future.

Stephen Dobson:

Mm, interesting. I'm, I'm just gonna unpack this. There's lots of history going on in what you just said there. So, um, you wanted to know the, you're a 17 year old. Were you interested in history then, or how did you become interested and make that kind of image into a reality to where you are now?

Ben Jones:

Uh, yes. I definitely was interested in history and always have been. And I suppose some of the advice I got as a, as a young man was to, uh, follow your passions and study the things that you genuinely care about. And so when I went to university, it seemed, uh, obvious enough that I should, uh, major in history, though I did enjoy taking, uh, philosophy and, uh, and English and some other topics as well. But of course, when you get to the stage of deciding to do an honors thesis, that's when the general history, as interesting as that, is stops. And you really have to focus right in on something. So by this stage, I'm in my early twenties and I, I didn't have a topic and then decided I wanted to do honors. I wanted to do honors, and then had to think, well, what is a topic I really care about? And, that got me thinking back about, well, I'm still struck. And so by this stage, it's a few years later about why a country that has such self-confidence, such a sense of self that seems to be this independent, progressive, multicultural nation in the Asia Pacific would look all the way to Great Britain and decide one of all of our citizens and all our natural resources and our human resources and our, uh, intellectual capacity and creativity that we still fall back on this very medieval notion that there is a royal family that who, who are just entitled to the position of being head of state.

Stephen Dobson:

And, um, you, you gradually became, let's call it a history teacher, or were you going to be one who was just a professional writing of histories? I mean, it's, it's not the old fashioned chronicling what the royals do, obviously. So, so tell us more. What, what is this being a historian, what what does it mean?

Ben Jones:

That's, uh, a really deep question and I'll, I'll start with what it's not. It definitely isn't a, just someone with a PhD, uh, looking over things in an archive. I'm very careful with my language with my students from the time they do their first assignment in their first year of university. I say, you are a historian. You are practicing history right now and think of yourself as such. And I think the profession is so much broader than academic historians. I think there's a wealth of, uh, high school teachers especially who have incredible value and insight, and in particular the local historical societies. And we've got about eight here in Rockhampton, and they're all over the country. And these are the real knowledge keepers of local stories. So I have a really broad interpretation that a historian is really anyone who's passionate about history and who applies the skills of a historian to try and keep these stories alive.

Stephen Dobson:

So, so do you go into the libraries in all these dusty books and things, or is it everything done differently now?

Ben Jones:

Oh, oh, absolutely. And that's, that's the fun stuff. Increasingly, of course, in this digital world, uh, we do have more and more online resources and the national archives, uh, gradually, uh, digitizing things. And trove is just a national treasure with, uh, millions of pages of digitized, uh, newspapers. But of course, it's still only a fraction of what's there. And it just depends what level you're at. Uh, that's fine for small projects. If you're doing a history PhD though, uh, you certainly can't do it all online. You need to get into the archives and it's, it's like detective work because it, it was only other humans with certain amount of time and skills who sometimes just throw things in a box, or sometimes people who may possess something and might just say to the archives, look, I know this is important, I don't really know what it is. But you preserve it. And sometimes the description in the National archives is very vague. Sometimes it's not even accurate. It really is only once you open it up that you can see what's in there and start piecing together what its significance is.

Stephen Dobson:

Uh, it, the, the image you create, it conjures up somebody who's got these old-fashioned, uh, metal, detect the machines walking across fields looking for little bits of metal. Um, I it that's a great metaphor, <laugh>. I know. It's not that. So, so the other thing I've noticed for you, you are also quite active is, let's, let me call it a public intellectual. So I, is that unusual for historians, or, or are you unique in, in that part of your profession?

Ben Jones:

I think I've had a really good example set for me by, uh, some other historians. And I, I, I might name, I, I think Frank Bongiorno, for instance, um, is really fantastic and really generous in this space. I, there, there was a phase, I think in the seventies where it was more usual for historians also to wear this second hat as a public intellectual. And perhaps it's, it's workloads or it's just this desire to want to just have a very small topic that you know a lot about and be the master of it. And as more people do PhDs, uh, the idea of being a public intellectual probably scares some people off. But on my, uh, Twitter for what, for what that's worth, uh, one of my pinned tweets is that I, I think, not just historians, but I think academics in general should think of themselves, especially if they work at a public university and they're paid by the public that they have a duty to. And it may be grandiose to say public intellectual, but at least to be out there writing for the popular press as well, and to be on the radio as much as you can, because I think historians and academics are really well placed, not just to talk about things that happened hundreds of years ago, but also to join the dots about how that might be relevant for today. And, uh, just as I was speaking, I'm thinking to my colleague and friend, uh, Carolyn Holbrooks just published a wonderful book called The Lessons of History. I think sometimes historians are too scared to want to say, and here's a application for now. Mm. Uh, it, it's so much safer to say, here's my comprehensive understanding of what did happen. But I think there's a real space for historians and, and a real need because with there, there's always someone who's willing to have a loud voice mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, and I think if people who really have done research and are passionate about an area are sort of brave enough to put their voice out there and realize, well, there may be some online trolls who attack whatever I say, but I'm gonna say it anyway cause I think it is for the, for the public. Good.

Stephen Dobson:

Fantastic. Uh, thank you, Ben. And, um, I'll invite all the, the young budding historians to read some of your, let's call it your public intellectual pieces, but also to dig into some of this very, uh, important debates about what should a nation be a republic or not.